http://debate.atheist.net Atheistic Forum en Fri, 18 May 2012 09:45:39 GMT vBulletin 60 http://debate.atheist.net/images/element/misc/rss.jpg http://debate.atheist.net http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4756&goto=newpost Thu, 10 May 2012 21:03:11 GMT The Ham Sandwich
A Jewish rabbi and a Catholic priest were good friends. At a picnic one day, the priest was eating a ham sandwich. "You know," he said to his friend, "this ham sandwich is delicious. I know you're not supposed to eat ham, but I don't understand why such a good thing would be forbidden. When will you break down and try it?"

To which the rabbi replied, "At your wedding." ]]> Humor peteresther http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4756 http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4754&goto=newpost Thu, 03 May 2012 19:45:14 GMT Hello

The internet can be a dangerous place:
"Web wanderers are more likely to get a computer virus by visiting a religious website than by peering at porn, according to a study released on Tuesday. "

According to
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/0...viruses-study/

I have decided to stay safe and have given up the religious surfing. :whistling:

Kind regards

Carvajal ]]> Chit Chat Carvajal http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4754 http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4751&goto=newpost Sat, 28 Apr 2012 16:57:10 GMT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0l7VRnSc6M Australian here, any one is welcome in our country as long as you dont bring your retarded culture and... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0l7VRnSc6M


Australian here, any one is welcome in our country as long as you dont bring your retarded culture and beliefs with you and then try to push them on us.
Keep them in your mosque, not on our streets.
Thank you. ]]> Religion cooldude8870 http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4751 http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4750&goto=newpost Fri, 27 Apr 2012 22:48:41 GMT I've been thinking about the Euthyphro dilemma lately and I made a response a few days ago to an atheist on YouTube named TheoreticalBS and his comments on the Euthyphro dilemma (if you want to watch it, it's right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO0iVxIXnPk). In this thread I'd like to elaborate on some of those ideas and discuss my solution to the dilemma.


The Euthyphro dilemma is as follows:

“Is something moral because God commands it or does God command it because it is moral?”

It is asserted that both of these possibilities are problematic. One objection to the first possibility is that this opens up the possibility of abhorrent commands. In one possible world, God would command that we should love our neighbor, but what is to prevent him from commanding that we should torture innocent babies for our pleasure?

It is said that the second possibility would be problematic because that would mean that morality is independent of God. If morality is independent of God, then you don't need theism for morality.

The typical apologetic response to this is that neither of these options are accurate. Instead, something is moral because it is in God's nature. I would agree that this is more accurate. If we were to say that something is moral BECAUSE God commands it, that would imply that God's commands are the ultimate standard of morality. But from a Christian worldview, God bases his commands from his nature.

Some have claimed that this does not free us from the Euthyphro dilemma. They have argued that a new Euthyphro dilemma can be proposed:

“Is something moral because it is in God's nature or is it in God's nature because it is moral?”

Of these two, I accept the first option. Things are moral because they are in God's nature. This option is still subject to the objections raised against the proposal that things are moral because they are commanded by God, but I don't any of them convincing problems.

In this thread, I will mainly cover one objection, the one that I previously mentioned. That is, if things are good solely because they are in God's nature, then why couldn't God have had a different nature, one which would obligate us to torture innocent babies, for instance?


Arbitrary morality in different worlds

I have two problems with the claim that the first option of the Euthyphro dilemma leads to arbitrary morality (in this sense).

My first problem is that this claim relies upon the assertion that moral facts remain the same in every possible world. If this assertion is false, then a world in which we are morally obligated to torture innocent babies for fun would be possible, and thus choosing this first possibility of the Euthyphro dilemma would not really be problematic. Personally, I don't see a lot of problems with moral facts varying in hypothetical possible worlds, except that we may feel that this couldn't be true.

The second problem that I have is that this makes morality arbitrary only in the case of a God who has a nature that could vary in different worlds. In other words, this first option wouldn't be a problem for Christian morality because if Yahweh's nature was different, then we simply wouldn't define him as Yahweh. In every possible world in which morality is dependent upon Yahweh's nature, moral facts will stay the same.

So let's say that Yahweh's nature is the same in every possible world in which he exists. Another potential objection would be that if this were the case, then God's nature wouldn't really be the ultimate source of morality, but it would be the things that God's nature is based upon (like love, forgiveness, etc). If this were the case, then God wouldn't be necessary for morality. This is a bad argument though. Yes, you can describe God's nature in a different way by figuring out what the criteria are for 'being in God's nature', but if God's nature were different or if God didn't exist, then those criteria would be meaningless. It would no longer be true that love, forgiveness, etc are objectively moral (unless we're considering a Platonistic world with the same moral facts). The only reason why love, forgiveness, etc are considered moral is because that's what God's nature is.


Arbitrary standard

Is there a reason or justification for God's nature being the way that it is or is it simply arbitrary? In this case, I would say that God's nature must be arbitrary and this isn't a problem. Any objective moral standard must be arbitrary, actually. If there was a further explanation of the ultimate standard for morality, then we would have to ask what the reason for that standard is...on and on into infinite regress. It has to stop somewhere and no matter what, the standard will be arbitrary in this sense. This is true regardless of whether we hold a Christian view of morality, a Platonistic view of morality or whether we simply reject the idea of objective morality altogether. In Christianity, the ultimate standard would be God's nature. In Platonism, the ultimate standard would be whatever moral facts happen to exist eternally. Without objective morality, the standard is whatever the person decides it to be (least amount of suffering, for example). The main difference between objective morality and subjective morality is that if we lived in a world with objective morality, it would actually be true that our actions were morally right or wrong. ]]> Philosophy shinydarkrai94 http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4750 http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4747&goto=newpost Wed, 25 Apr 2012 13:40:03 GMT True or false maybe ?

"Chapter XX.—Some Parts of the Old Testament Written to Try Us

Wherefore every man who wishes to be saved must become, as the Teacher said, a judge of the books written to try us. For thus He spake: ‘Become experienced bankers.’ Now the need of bankers arises from the circumstance that the spurious is mixed up with the genuine.”


Try=Test. ]]> Religion Thomas Kelly guessed http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4747 http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4746&goto=newpost Wed, 25 Apr 2012 01:39:45 GMT Theological beliefs square off in a duel to the death. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH6Ad8aO9-0 Theological beliefs square off in a duel to the death.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH6Ad8aO9-0 ]]> Humor ThirdStringKicker http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4746 http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4744&goto=newpost Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:31:18 GMT Hello atheist.net:) Hope you are all keeping well? Having good debates? Any conversions;) ? Wish I had something to debate about so that I could... Hello atheist.net:)

Hope you are all keeping well? Having good debates?

Any conversions;) ?

Wish I had something to debate about so that I could make contact and join in here and there like I used to, but I don't.

From a quick look around, I notice Hithesh has not posted for a year or so? Also Martin, Lars, MartinRuager, Xaignar and Matthill? Oh well, nothing stays the same I guess.

Best wishes,
Esther:) ]]> Chit Chat peteresther http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4744 http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4742&goto=newpost Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:12:15 GMT We had my son’s family over for lunch today. We had roast Danish gammon with roast potatoes, roast parsnips, a selection of vegetables and my own... We had my son’s family over for lunch today. We had roast Danish gammon with roast potatoes, roast parsnips, a selection of vegetables and my own recipe mushroom and parsley sauce with cream. The Danish gammon was great. We’ll have it more often. :thumbsup: ]]> Miscellaneous GordonHide http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4742