A New Ten Commandments

[grioghar]

The Ten Commandments of Moses continue to be held up as a complete moral and ethical code and guide to correct behavior. In the US, controversy continues over attempts to place this code in public places. Yet even most moderate Christians, and I presume moderate Muslims and Jews, can see that these “Commandments” focus only on suppressing other religious view and stating several somewhat obvious rules of a simple civil society. I know others have proposed a new set of commandments, but I thought I would give it a try. What are people’s reactions to the following list (which admittedly was inspired by the list in Dawkin’s The God Delusion, from which I heavily borrowed):

A New Ten Commandments


1. Treat others as you would like to be treated.
2. Treat the natural world with respect.
a. Protect and preserve the environment.
b. Treat living things with respect.
c. Seek to create a better world.
3. Rejoice in your life.
a. Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.
b. Appreciate what you have.
c. Look after your emotional, physical, social and intellectual health.
4. Seek knowledge and understanding.
a. Always seek to be growing in your knowledge and understanding.
b. Always check your understanding, ideas and beliefs against the best available facts or information, and be ready to discard any belief if it does not conform to this best available information.
5. Seek moderation in all thoughts and actions.
a. Understand your cravings and do not be a slave to them.
6. Have integrity in all your words, actions and thought.
a. Keep your agreements and promises.
b. Take responsibility for your action.
7. Protect and care for the weak and vulnerable.
8. Recognize harm and act to prevent, stop or minimize it.
9. Respect the right of others to act and think differently; seek to understand the reasons for their thoughts and behaviors. Honor their contribution to the richness of your world.
10. Strive to make the world a better place
a. Leave a contribution for future generations
b. Seek to further the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of others
c. Nurture and support the ethical, intellectual and emotional growth of your family

[Xaignar]

Well, first off, that's not exactly ten commandments, that's more like 24 commandments.

Personally I fail to see why we should grant any credibility to the original 2 times 10 commandments (as well as the associated religions), by making our own version, as if it was a good idea to begin with. Though I understand the sentiment, it still seems like the entirely wrong approach to me.


The notion of having a discrete number of commandments as a core part of any moral system is to me an anathema, as it results in a stratification of thinking, and hence may prevent people from doing what is actually the best thing in a given situation.

In my opinion, we should avoid commandments, and rather encourage people to think about their goals, as well as how to reach them, rather than giving out cookie-cutter answers. Especially given that such cookie-cutter answers easily result in conflict due to the absolute nature of such commandments (consider for instance 4a vs 5), and the fact that people will interpret the commandments differently.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by Xaignar

Well, first off, that's not exactly ten commandments, that's more like 24 commandments.

Precisely. In today's hectic world, less is more:

God: I'm No.1
No pix, plz.
Uz my name nicely.
Day7holy
Take care of mum'n'dad
Don't kill, scrUround, steal or lie
Keep your hands (&eyes) off wot isnt yrs!

[grioghar]

[quote=Xaignar;10275]

In my opinion, we should avoid commandments, and rather encourage people to think about their goals, as well as how to reach them, rather than giving out cookie-cutter answers. QUOTE]


I, like you Xaignar, am not particularily rule-based, prefering to think through the relative moral nuances of each complex situation as the situation presents itself. In Bush's world, I'd be a flip-flopper, as I think context is everything, and my decisions and behaviors vary with that context.

That said, not everyone is either capable or interested in sorting through moral and ethical complexity. It's been years since I took developmental psychology at college, but I still recall the theories (and research) of Lawrence Kohlberg who posited individual differnces in moral development. Wikipedia explains: "This theory holds that moral reasoning, which is the basis for ethical behavior, has six identifiable developmental constructive stages - each is more adequate at responding to moral dilemmas than the last." I'm not hung up on whether there are truely six or 26, but I do believe some people are better equipped to deal with moral complexity then others.


Kohlberg's "stages" are:

Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)
1. Obedience and punishment orientation
2. Self-interest orientation (What's in it for me?)
Level 2 (Conventional)
3. Interpersonal accord and conformity (The good boy/good girl attitude)
4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation (Law and order morality)
Level 3 (Post-Conventional)
5. Social contract orientation
6. Universal ethical principles (Principled conscience)

If everyone had a nuanced principled conscience, as you may Xaignar, I'd say forget the moral guidelines. Unfortuantely, some people live their entire lives with a simple "obedience and punishment" orientation. These are the very people at risk of a persuasive authoritarian personality or system (whether Pol Pot's version of communism or a Southern Baptist's version of religion). If humanism is to meet the needs of everyone, it needs to meet the needs of not just those with a well-developed internal moral compass, but also all those preconventional and conventional sorts, who likely grately outnumber the postconventional ones.

Pretty paternalistic, eh?

grioghar

[Xaignar]

Originally Posted by grioghar

I, like you Xaignar, am not particularily rule-based, prefering to think through the relative moral nuances of each complex situation as the situation presents itself. In Bush's world, I'd be a flip-flopper, as I think context is everything, and my decisions and behaviors vary with that context.

That said, not everyone is either capable or interested in sorting through moral and ethical complexity. It's been years since I took developmental psychology at college, but I still recall the theories (and research) of Lawrence Kohlberg who posited individual differnces in moral development. Wikipedia explains: "This theory holds that moral reasoning, which is the basis for ethical behavior, has six identifiable developmental constructive stages - each is more adequate at responding to moral dilemmas than the last." I'm not hung up on whether there are truely six or 26, but I do believe some people are better equipped to deal with moral complexity then others.


Kohlberg's "stages" are:

Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)
1. Obedience and punishment orientation
2. Self-interest orientation (What's in it for me?)
Level 2 (Conventional)
3. Interpersonal accord and conformity (The good boy/good girl attitude)
4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation (Law and order morality)
Level 3 (Post-Conventional)
5. Social contract orientation
6. Universal ethical principles (Principled conscience)

If everyone had a nuanced principled conscience, as you may Xaignar, I'd say forget the moral guidelines. Unfortuantely, some people live their entire lives with a simple "obedience and punishment" orientation. These are the very people at risk of a persuasive authoritarian personality or system (whether Pol Pot's version of communism or a Southern Baptist's version of religion). If humanism is to meet the needs of everyone, it needs to meet the needs of not just those with a well-developed internal moral compass, but also all those preconventional and conventional sorts, who likely grately outnumber the postconventional ones.

Pretty paternalistic, eh?

grioghar

I see your point, however I fail to see how such a set of commandments address the need of people at the 1st. stage of Kohlberg model. For one thing, most of these commandments are not enforced (much like the original ten!), and hence there is no "punishment" to encourage "obedience". Moreover, many of the commandments you gave contradict the desires of a person at the 2nd state, who would be following an ethical system based on egoism.

Therefore, it seems to me that these "commandments" will simply fail to appeal to any stage below the third (assuming that this model is even realistic, which I doubt). In my opinion, it would be next to impossible to present a system which would satisfy all of these levels, given that they have contradictory implications.

Hence, if humanists are to provide moral guidance (assuming that Kohlberg's model holds), then the goal must be to bring people to a higher stage (hence my comment to make people think about their morality), rather than simply putting a band-aid on the problem.

And to use your own example of "persuasive authoritarian [personalities] or [systems]", why would any person "stuck" at a lower stage find your commandments more persuasive that the rules derived from such a system or personality? The answer to this problem, it seems to me, is to make them realize a moral stage of development that is not so susceptible to such influence.

[ozm8]

Your soul is history? or not?
10000 years of etiquette is hard to fauly, yes?
I sound like a conservative but I am not, LOL, 10000 YEARS!!!!!!!!!
The commandments is the last surviving contract of a thousand contracts! Yes?
Not God so much as us?
Tell me if I'm wrong? Atheists can be guilty of rhubarb and therefore a kind of denial? What I seek in life is truth, just truth! Whatever the hell that is!!!!!! lol cheers stu
I still like these sites it gives my grey matter a chance to set you back on course!!!! lol Whoever you are, wherever you are? I like all philosophy, chance for us you think?
Or will the rationalists, not or, will!!! destroy us????
I am of spirit, not religion!!!! cheers Stu

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by ozm8

Your soul is history? or not?

This sentence does not compute! What is a soul, and how can it have anything to do with history?

10000 years of etiquette is hard to fauly, yes?
I sound like a conservative but I am not, LOL, 10000 YEARS!!!!!!!!!
The commandments is the last surviving contract of a thousand contracts! Yes?

Contract with who? I am not aware of any contract with legally binding. If you think that if somebody write that they have made a contract with some god, and that should be somehow evidence that the contract is worth looking at, or that this god then somehow exists, then I am sure you will be interested in the contract with the tooth fairy that I am currently drawing up!

I still like these sites it gives my grey matter a chance to set you back on course!!!! lol

Well, we are looking forward to see it when it happens.

I am of spirit, not religion!!!

You certainly show some some spirit, though perhaps not of the type that you think.

[GordonHide]

Originally Posted by grioghar

What are people’s reactions to the following list:

A New Ten Commandments


1. Treat others as you would like to be treated.
2. Treat the natural world with respect.
a. Protect and preserve the environment.
b. Treat living things with respect.
c. Seek to create a better world.
3. Rejoice in your life.
a. Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.
b. Appreciate what you have.
c. Look after your emotional, physical, social and intellectual health.
4. Seek knowledge and understanding.
a. Always seek to be growing in your knowledge and understanding.
b. Always check your understanding, ideas and beliefs against the best available facts or information, and be ready to discard any belief if it does not conform to this best available information.
5. Seek moderation in all thoughts and actions.
a. Understand your cravings and do not be a slave to them.
6. Have integrity in all your words, actions and thought.
a. Keep your agreements and promises.
b. Take responsibility for your action.
7. Protect and care for the weak and vulnerable.
8. Recognize harm and act to prevent, stop or minimize it.
9. Respect the right of others to act and think differently; seek to understand the reasons for their thoughts and behaviors. Honor their contribution to the richness of your world.
10. Strive to make the world a better place
a. Leave a contribution for future generations
b. Seek to further the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of others
c. Nurture and support the ethical, intellectual and emotional growth of your family

Well, Xaignar has said it all here. It's wrong to give credence to the idea that a list of behavioural admonishments is a suitable approach to moral teaching.
Context is, as you said yourself, everything. The fact that evaluating choice is more difficult than following fixed rules is no excuse for adopting a wrong approach.

[ozm8]

There is only one commandment be open to the truth in others

[ozm8]

When the channel silts up erosion and degredation follow.