Ten Commandments Purpose

[peteresther]

Originally Posted by ShazaamsCape

I don't really understand this. You mean we can kill and still get into heaven?

Thought the 10 commandments say thou shalt not kill? Kill what? Animals? Or just people?

but now we can kill and be with god? I don't buy that. no one likes liars. Even the 10 commandments says not to lie. Can you lie and get to heaven?

I was comparing the Jews having to keep all the laws as a means of salvation, and the New Testament requirement of faith in Christ for salvation. Those laws, moral laws are said to be written in our hearts, in our consciences now...I am sure everyone feels guilty about lying, or stealing or murdering or commiting adultery etc, so this is proof that these laws are now written in humans heart kind of thing... We know instinctively if you like, what is right and what is wrong...

[peteresther]

Originally Posted by mattwilson

Let's see shall we...

Thou shalt have no other gods before ME.
About loving god, nothing about fellow men

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
About loving god, nothing about fellow men

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
About loving god, nothing about fellow men

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Nothing to do with love there

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee
That's more about obedience, not love

Thou shalt not kill.
A social bonding excercise

Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Nothing about love, it's more of the bibles preocupation with controlling sex.

Thou shalt not steal.
A social bonding excercise

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
A social bonding excercise

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's
Nothing to do with love

Fail!

Oh Matt! Can you really not see that the commandments are about loving God and ones fellow man? This is a form of love in action, to not steal, not lie, not kill etc. "Social bonding exercise" can be seen as a form of love I think...

[bowmore]

Originally Posted by peteresther

We know instinctively if you like, what is right and what is wrong...

So you think it's unnecessary to teach children morality, as they instinctively know what is moral and what is not...?

[mattwilson]

Originally Posted by peteresther

Oh Matt! Can you really not see that the commandments are about loving God and ones fellow man? This is a form of love in action, to not steal, not lie, not kill etc. "Social bonding exercise" can be seen as a form of love I think...

Not at all, it is quite possible to detest someone within these "guidelines". Indeed the 10 commandments say nothing about assault, slavery, mutilation, torture or rape. Just don't kill them and don't steal their stuff. There's plenty of room for manouvre.

[Martin]

Originally Posted by peteresther

I was comparing the Jews having to keep all the laws as a means of salvation,

Where do you get that notion from?

There was no salvation in the Old Testament (except for the very newest books, like Daniel). When people died, they died. End of story.

Where in the Pentateuch do you see Moses promising that you will go to Heaven if you follow the 613 commandments?

Originally Posted by peteresther

I am sure everyone feels guilty about lying, or stealing or murdering or commiting adultery etc, so this is proof that these laws are now written in humans heart kind of thing... We know instinctively if you like, what is right and what is wrong...

What a weird thing to say, "these laws are now written in humans heart". Are you saying that human hearts have been re-programmed recently? And does that go for atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and Pikkiwokiists, as well?

[Martin]

Originally Posted by mattwilson

Not at all, it is quite possible to detest someone within these "guidelines". Indeed the 10 commandments say nothing about assault, slavery, mutilation, torture or rape. Just don't kill them and don't steal their stuff. There's plenty of room for manouvre.

The Ten Commandments say a lot about slavery -- in fact they mention slavery 3 times.

"I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

Translation: Keeping Jews as slaves is worse than keeping everybody else as slaves.

"But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:"

Translation: It's OK to have slaves, as long as you make sure they keep the Sabbath.

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Translation: You're not allowed to covet your neighbor's slaves. Instead you have to buy your own.

And let's not forget that the Ten Commandments are not the oldest in the Pentateuch. There are even older commandments about slavery.

[mattwilson]

Originally Posted by Martin

The Ten Commandments say a lot about slavery -- in fact they mention slavery 3 times.

"I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

Translation: Keeping Jews as slaves is worse than keeping everybody else as slaves.

"But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:"

Translation: It's OK to have slaves, as long as you make sure they keep the Sabbath.

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Translation: You're not allowed to covet your neighbor's slaves. Instead you have to buy your own.

And let's not forget that the Ten Commandments are not the oldest in the Pentateuch. There are even older commandments about slavery.

Haven't we got some apologetics from voter about slavery somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up

[spaghettimonster]

More interesting than interpreting the cryptic, ambiguous and violence-laden Bible, is the fact that you are all spending and have spent so much time doing so.

Free your minds from this relentless trip to the bottom of the well of the intellectually devoid.

Everyone is an atheist with regards to every god ever conjoured up by man; most of you just have not taken the last leap to disavow the deity you claim to believe in.

You cling to your own personal flying spaghetti monster at your peril and at the peril of humanity.

Instead of attempting to interpret the conflicting messages of the 10 commandments, you should instead focus on developing the personal courage to stand against the indescribable stupidity that is religion.

[peteresther]

Originally Posted by mattwilson

Not at all, it is quite possible to detest someone within these "guidelines". Indeed the 10 commandments say nothing about assault, slavery, mutilation, torture or rape. Just don't kill them and don't steal their stuff. There's plenty of room for manouvre.

Hi Matt, I have been thinking a bit about this...

Yes, you are right the 10 c's do not mention other things, but could it be that each one of the 10 could be chapter headings? That although the following things are not mentioned, they could be worked into the 10 chapter headings?:

Rape, prostitution, incest, child molestation, cruelty to animals, bestiality, torture, exhortation, slavery, cannibalism, kidnapping, fraud, forgery.

The way I see it is that if you love your fellow man, you will never do them any harm, and you will actually even go out of your way to do them good. What do you think?

[peteresther]

Originally Posted by Martin

Where do you get that notion from?

There was no salvation in the Old Testament (except for the very newest books, like Daniel). When people died, they died. End of story.

It has been taught to me like this by various preachers I trust!

I have no chapters and verses I am ashamed to admit (maily because I do not read the OT, not something I am proud of either...but the NT is what I am concentrating on...)

However, when Jesus told that story of Lazarus and the rich man, he was still operating in the OT, by telling the story of Abraham's bosom and the gulf between it and the place of torment. Can this count for now? (Not as far as the keeping of the 600 odd laws for salvation, but as there being life after death for OT times.)

If you would like to see scriptural support for the Jews keeping the law for salvation, I would probably point to the book of Romans, where Paul goes to great lengths to tell the Jewish people that keeping the law does not offer salvation. This makes me think that they thought keeping the law did bring salvation...

Where in the Pentateuch do you see Moses promising that you will go to Heaven if you follow the 613 commandments?

Well, like I said...not really read by me, but I am sure the OT, somewhere does mention this several times...

What a weird thing to say, "these laws are now written in humans heart". Are you saying that human hearts have been re-programmed recently? And does that go for atheists, Hindus, Buddhists and Pikkiwokiists, as well?

this applies only to the Pikkiwokiists! (Joke)

All I know is that most people, the majority of people know in their conscienses (tsk, sp, no spell check in the reply boxes, and I am too lazy now...) what is right and what is wrong. (Excluding those who are mentally ill, or those who have seared theirs of course...)