Ten Commandments Purpose

[bowmore]

Originally Posted by peteresther

It has been taught to me like this by various preachers I trust!

Even to the point you'd let them alone with your children?

[Martin]

Originally Posted by peteresther

However, when Jesus told that story of Lazarus and the rich man, he was still operating in the OT, by telling the story of Abraham's bosom and the gulf between it and the place of torment. Can this count for now? (Not as far as the keeping of the 600 odd laws for salvation, but as there being life after death for OT times.)

The story of Lazarus and the rich man has nothing at all to do with OT.

The simple moral is that Lazarus goes to Heaven because he was poor in this life, and the rich man goes to Hell because he was rich. As Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony".

There's not a hint anywhere that Lazarus was saved because of good deeds / faith / repentance / whatever, and not a hint that the rich man was evil.

The absurd thing is that Abraham was rich and had slaves and concubines. In the OT Abraham and all the other patriarchs were rich precisely because they were favoured by God. So if there was a shred of logic in Luke's gospel, Abraham would be burning in Hell along with the rich man.

Originally Posted by peteresther

If you would like to see scriptural support for the Jews keeping the law for salvation, I would probably point to the book of Romans, where Paul goes to great lengths to tell the Jewish people that keeping the law does not offer salvation. This makes me think that they thought keeping the law did bring salvation...

Well, Paul may have a point there, since the Old Testament never offered salvation through the Law.

The only salvation you got then was that God / the church / the king wouldn't kill you and wouldn't force you to eat your kids. I'll give you a few quotes.

Originally Posted by peteresther

Well, like I said...not really read by me, but I am sure the OT, somewhere does mention this several times...

Like I said, the OT doesn't mention salvation, except for a very few and very new books, like Daniel and 2nd Maccabees.

Here's a sample of the kind of "salvation" OT would offer you:

Deuteronomy 7,12 If you heed these ordinances, by diligently observing them, the LORD your God will maintain with you the covenant loyalty that he swore to your ancestors;
Deuteronomy 7,13 he will love you, bless you, and multiply you; he will bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your wine and your oil, the increase of your cattle and the issue of your flock, in the land that he swore to your ancestors to give you.
Deuteronomy 7,14 You shall be the most blessed of peoples, with neither sterility nor barrenness among you or your livestock.
Deuteronomy 7,15 The LORD will turn away from you every illness; all the dread diseases of Egypt that you experienced, he will not inflict on you, but he will lay them on all who hate you.
Deuteronomy 7,16 You shall devour all the peoples that the LORD your God is giving over to you, showing them no pity; you shall not serve their gods, for that would be a snare to you.

So in this ultra-short sample, God promises that if you obey Him, He will in return give you lots of children, harvest, grain, wine, oil and cattle. Neither you wives nor your livestock will be "barren" (naturally it goes without saying that men are never "barren"). God will refrain from ruining your health, "all the dread diseases of Egypt that you experienced, he will not inflict on you", and you will be able to kill all your enemies.

What a friend we have in God.

Here's a very, very small extract of what happens to people who don't follow the Law:

Deuteronomy 28,15 But if you will not obey the LORD your God by diligently observing all his commandments and decrees, which I am commanding you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you:
Deuteronomy 28,16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.
Deuteronomy 28,17 Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
Deuteronomy 28,18 Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb, the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle and the issue of your flock.
Deuteronomy 28,19 Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
Deuteronomy 28,20 The LORD will send upon you disaster, panic, and frustration in everything you attempt to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me.
Deuteronomy 28,19 The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until it has consumed you off the land that you are entering to possess.


[...]

Deuteronomy 28,53 In the desperate straits to which the enemy siege reduces you, you will eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your own sons and daughters whom the LORD your God has given you.

If you haven't read OT, then you should try looking at all the exquisite curses in Deuteronomy 28 (and Leviticus 26).

Again, "salvation" means that God won't torture you. Well, I guess that's what it means in the NT too.

Originally Posted by peteresther

(tsk, sp, no spell check in the reply boxes, and I am too lazy now...)

You can install the Google Toolbar -- or you can use the spiel Czech in FireFox.

[peteresther]

Originally Posted by bowmore

Even to the point you'd let them alone with your children?

Hey bowmore! Long time no communication with you! I am not Catholic you know! Pastors are not priests! But I know what you mean. As far as I know, there is not a big outcry of pastors molesting children. This is not to say that there are none, but nothing as prolific as the Catholic priests, not in the media at any rate!

I used to be very gullible, now I am not so very gullible, but when it comes to my girls, I didn't really trust anyone with them! (Except my Mom and Dad and a few others...)

[peteresther]

Originally Posted by Martin

The story of Lazarus and the rich man has nothing at all to do with OT.

The simple moral is that Lazarus goes to Heaven because he was poor in this life, and the rich man goes to Hell because he was rich. As Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony".

Everything is Old Testament prior to Christ's death and resurrection! NT only kicks in after the resurrection of Christ!

Abraham's bosom is not the same as God's bosom you know! Abraham's bosom was like a holding cell, a pleasant, paradise holding cell...for the righteous (those which were right with God in whatever way God saw them to be...) until such time as Christ died and resurrected. Then only were they able to go to heaven, which is not the same as Abraham's bosom...

There's not a hint anywhere that Lazarus was saved because of good deeds / faith / repentance / whatever, and not a hint that the rich man was evil.

Sure, but God saw something in Lazarus which made him place Lazarus in a pleasant place, and the rich man in an unpleasant place...

It is only NT which introduces faith in Christ and repentance etc as the criteria for salvation.

The absurd thing is that Abraham was rich and had slaves and concubines. In the OT Abraham and all the other patriarchs were rich precisely because they were favoured by God. So if there was a shred of logic in Luke's gospel, Abraham would be burning in Hell along with the rich man.

Well, Abraham is also noted for his faith in God! Faith in God has a good definition in the Amplified Bible! It is: "The leaning of the entire human personality in confidence and trust in God's wisdom, power and goodness." So OT or NT, God could and can see who has faith in him or not!

If you haven't read OT, then you should try looking at all the exquisite curses in Deuteronomy 28 (and Leviticus 26).

The only way I read it is that Christ redeemed us who have faith in him from all those curses of the law!

Again, "salvation" means that God won't torture you. Well, I guess that's what it means in the NT too.

Oh I am so happy to tell you that salvation, Greek word "sozo" means a bit more than this! From the Greek Lexicon:

to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
one (from injury or peril)
to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
to save in the technical biblical sense
negatively 1b
to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b
to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance

You can install the Google Toolbar -- or you can use the spiel Czech in FireFox.

Hey thanks! I will try the google toolbar, as I don't think I can do the firefox thing on my computer!

[xcept2010]

I really think the story of the rich man and Lazarus is one of my favorites to talk about. It tells a lot of information in such a small account.

Luke 16:19-31

First, when Jesus uses a name of a person, it isn't a fable/parable/yarn, whatever you may refer to it as.

So this is a true account of one man going to the ground and another to the side of Abraham being comforted.

Lazarus eating the bread crumbs, these were bread that people used as napkins because they didn't have such things, they would wipe their hands and face with a piece of bread and throw it on the ground.

They both die and the rich man can see Lazarus, he knows he is there, he remembers him and his name, he remembers his former life. He can feel pain, the heat of the scorching fire, which could be the heat from in the earth. Which is why we go "down" to hell.

The rich man tells Abraham (I believe it is Abraham he was talking to) to have Lazarus quench his thirst, he's denied. He tells him there is a chasm, fixed between them preventing anyone from crossing over for any reason.

The rich man also tells Abraham to send Lazarus to his family. He is denied this as well saying that they have Moses and the prophets, if they do not believe them, they will not believe if someone even comes from the dead.

This is very true words. I have seen people in the light of great truth and evidence, merely laugh and turn their hearts harder.

This not only shows life after death, but also great details about the things in those realms.
Comfort... or Torture? Which do you choose?

I am hoping you choose comfort

[Martin]

Originally Posted by peteresther

Everything is Old Testament prior to Christ's death and resurrection! NT only kicks in after the resurrection of Christ!

Abraham's bosom is not the same as God's bosom you know! Abraham's bosom was like a holding cell, a pleasant, paradise holding cell...for the righteous (those which were right with God in whatever way God saw them to be...) until such time as Christ died and resurrected. Then only were they able to go to heaven, which is not the same as Abraham's bosom...

What a weird thing to say, "Abraham's bosom is not the same as God's bosom". Do you mean to say that Lazarus in "Limbo" or what? Has Lazarus and Abraham ended up in Heaven's waiting room?

I don't know why you're so focused on bosoms. The NRSV doesn't use the word "bosom".

Luke 16:22 The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side.

Lazarus gets to stay with Abraham, and since you've just stated on this very page that you aren't a Catholic, I suppose you don't believe in Limbo.

So what do you mean. Did Lazarus go to Limbo or to Heaven?

Originally Posted by peteresther

Sure, but God saw something in Lazarus which made him place Lazarus in a pleasant place, and the rich man in an unpleasant place...

Hey, I can't force you to read what I write, and I can't force you to read the Bible.

But if you make an assertion that flatly contradicts what I and the Bible say, at least do have the courtesy to back up your assertions with some kind of argument.

Originally Posted by peteresther

Well, Abraham is also noted for his faith in God! Faith in God has a good definition in the Amplified Bible! It is: "The leaning of the entire human personality in confidence and trust in God's wisdom, power and goodness." So OT or NT, God could and can see who has faith in him or not!

Maybe you should read the Bible some day? Abraham was a slave-owner, who raped several of his sex slaves; he was a pimp who sold Sarah's ass twice; he was a zealot was was willing to slaughter his son; he was a would-be murderer who chased his sex slave (after having raped her) out in the desert with their mutual child to die.

That's Christian family values for you.

Originally Posted by peteresther

The only way I read it is that Christ redeemed us who have faith in him from all those curses of the law!

Translation: You are not going to read Deuteronomy 28 or Leviticus 26 or anything else in the Bible for that matter.

OK, I hope you at least read those verses that I colorized for you.

Originally Posted by peteresther

Oh I am so happy to tell you that salvation, Greek word "sozo" means a bit more than this! From the Greek Lexicon:

to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
one (from injury or peril)
to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
to save in the technical biblical sense
negatively 1b
to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b
to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance

Oh I am so happy to tell you that we agree. Salvation means to be safe from calamities, and since all calamities come from God, salvation means that God won't torture you.

Maybe you should try reading Deuteronomy 28 or Leviticus 26.

Originally Posted by peteresther

Hey thanks! I will try the google toolbar, as I don't think I can do the firefox thing on my computer!

You're welcome. Why can't you "do the firefox thing" on your computer? If you have FireFox installed I think it's on per default.

[Reprieve]

Originally Posted by peteresther

Hey bowmore! Long time no communication with you! I am not Catholic you know! Pastors are not priests! But I know what you mean. As far as I know, there is not a big outcry of pastors molesting children. This is not to say that there are none, but nothing as prolific as the Catholic priests, not in the media at any rate!

Statistically speaking, there is ~9% molestation rate across all denominations. Of course, the media focusses on Catholics more because it's a well established story (as well as many other factors, I don't mean to take too much a swipe at 'Big Media')