A Hypothesis that is Undeniable

[davincikode]

Listen, atheist brothers.

Let us use rational thinking to the max, until you can take no more.

Listen to this proposition:

How can DESIGN arise out of a state of NON-DESIGN?
How can Life arise out of a state of NON-LIFE?

No atheist ever contemplated what he refuted when he said 'God does not exist'.

They say 'If God exists, then who or what created him?'

I tell you, the hypothesis itself is a flaw in rational thinking, for the concept of God refers to a Being that is by NECESSITY SELF-EXISTENT ,else, it would not be God, it would be something inferior to God and Godhood, and therefore, subject to being Created. I challenge dull intellects, CONTEMPLATE THIS, RESOLVE IT - IF YOU CAN.

Hence, by definition, all refutations of God are invalid, if one hold strictly to the definition of what God must be. If something or someone is to be God, then He must have in Him or Herself the power to be Self-Existent, else it could NEVER be God, it would be an inferior, CREATED specie.

Jesus said: "So as the Father has the power to give Life, so the Son has received power to give Life'. What do you think this means, in this context?

Jesus testified of this Divine Power. God can never be subjected to the paradigm of >> *THE CREATED*. To be God is to be beyond BEING *SUBJECT TO BEING CREATED*. Ponder this with your dull intellect and finally Realize how the discussion of God's existence/non-existence is totally futile, fallacious, stupid, ignorant, blasphemous.

THE THING THAT IS CALLED GOD, IS SUPERIOR TO THE CONDITION OF BEING CREATED, BECAUSE EVERYTHING THAT IS CONDITIONED TO BEING CREATED, CANNOT BE GOD. EVERYTHING THAT IS CREATED BELONGS TO THE "CREATED", IT IS INFERIOR TO ANY GOD-STATE. THE INVINCIBLE HYPOTHESIS IS STARING IN THE FACE OF DULL PHILOSOPHERS. HAIL TO THE ALMIGHTY, THE REAL SEEDER OF INTELLIGENT, RATIONAL THINKING.

The atheist community is made up of dull philosophers, who *could* be superior saints, if they would direct their reasoning powers to Truth.

Furthermore, religion is more then Christianity. If you don't like Christian people, then read something more intelligent, like the Hindu scripture called the Bhagavad Gita. This scripture will smash your intelligence like you never had one. It's time for the funny atheist to stop preying on grandma christians and to battle with the real intelligent scriptures out there, which are predominantly Hindu/Vedic. Obviously they don't, because those scriptures will wipe the floor with your self-entitlement to I.Q. and intelligence.

There is absolutely no reason to refute God based on a aversion to Christianity. There is so much literature out there that testifies of God in a rational, intelligent way, that it will make your head blow off - if you can find the passion for the Greater.

So peace to you all, and have a nice weekend.

DKODE.

[Rune Nyrup]

Originally Posted by davincikode

How can DESIGN arise out of a state of NON-DESIGN?
How can Life arise out of a state of NON-LIFE?

Easy: Spontaneous generation. Non-living, non-designed matter acts according to the laws of physics. The laws of physics caused them to organize into more and more complex systems (cosmology and geophysics describes the broad outlines of this story). At some time, the systems became so complex that they we would call it life. Life evolved (as described by evolutionary biology) and at some point we call it intelligence. Things that we normally call intelligent are able to do the kind of things we normally call design. But at no point is anything fundamentally new created - at the bottom it's all just physics.

Originally Posted by davincikode

No atheist ever contemplated what he refuted when he said 'God does not exist'.

Yes they did.

Originally Posted by davincikode

They say 'If God exists, then who or what created him?'

They have many convincing arguments apart from this one; the 'what caused God'-argument is rather a counterargument to the claim that everything needs a cause.

Originally Posted by davincikode

I tell you, the hypothesis itself is a flaw in rational thinking, for the concept of God refers to a Being that is by NECESSITY SELF-EXISTENT ,else, it would not be God,
[snipped a lot of capital letter]

As if we haven't heard the ontological argument before....

The ontological argument, at best, shows that if God exists, then he necesarily exists (according to your definition of God). But whether God exists, the argument leaves open; and so it is with this argument of yours.

The argument can even be turned around. Since there is a possible world in which no God exists, namely the logically possible world where nothing exists, God does not necesarily exist. By modus tollens, this implies that God does not exist.

Originally Posted by davincikode

Furthermore, religion is more then Christianity.

Wauw, you don't say!

Originally Posted by davincikode

If you don't like Christian people, then read something more intelligent, like the Hindu scripture called the Bhagavad Gita. This scripture will smash your intelligence like you never had one. It's time for the funny atheist to stop preying on grandma christians and to battle with the real intelligent scriptures out there, which are predominantly Hindu/Vedic. Obviously they don't, because those scriptures will wipe the floor with your self-entitlement to I.Q. and intelligence.

The reason why I haven't read them is that noone have given me good reason to think they contain anything profound.

If they are so mind-blowing, you should have no difficulty supplying us a sample of its supreme logic in your next post. If you can present something intelligent that I haven't heard countless times before, I might consider reading them.

[davincikode]

Fallicious.

First come with a good First Cause instead of the laws of physics. That's just logic on the level of a hospitalized imbecile for God sakes.

Atheists invent First Causes out of the blue, as the situation requires. When people come with a First Cause that is totally Loving, totally Benign, then of a sudden, things are irrational.

The only persons who think chances brings SO MUCH luck are those who are addicted to gambling and are sitting on poker tables @ casino's. You cannot possibly hold this childish reasoning as 'the' philosophy of life.

[davincikode]

Secondly, that God is Self-Existent, Eternally, you cannot wipe-out this Fact of Life. No matter how hard you try. Your bacteria's, your laws of psychics, are all secondary causes.

Evolution is the medium God utilizes for Creation. Nuff' said!

[Rune Nyrup]

Originally Posted by davincikode

First come with a good First Cause instead of the laws of physics. That's just logic on the level of a hospitalized imbecile for God sakes.

I don't need to postulate a specific first cause. I can either hold that the universe is uncaused (or self-caused); or that there is some first cause (even a necessary first cause) as long as it is not a god; or I can even hold that the notion of causation is incoherent as applied to the universe and the laws of physics.

Originally Posted by davincikode

Secondly, that God is Self-Existent, Eternally, you cannot wipe-out this Fact of Life. No matter how hard you try. Your bacteria's, your laws of psychics, are all secondary causes.

"Fact of life", huh? Big words, dude.

All I can see that you say is that the definition of God implies that he is a 'Self-Existent, Eternal being'. But whether such a being exists has not been shown. And even if a self-existent, eternal being exists this being does not need to be a god.

[davincikode]

Originally Posted by Rune Nyrup

I don't need to postulate a specific first cause. I can either hold that the universe is uncaused (or self-caused); or that there is some first cause (even a necessary first cause) as long as it is not a god; or I can even hold that the notion of causation is incoherent as applied to the universe and the laws of physics.

You can, but why would you? One who is interested in Truth doesn't 'pick' what he wants to believe. That's a sign of dishonesty.

But matter of fact, atheism just as agnosticism is based on dishonesty. You can be sure you can prove God exists. The difference with reasoning v.s. believing in God however, is that you need to approach God first, by the medium of prayer, before you can know him.

Why does one need to approach God first before He will make his existence know to you? It is because of free-will. If you want to believe or live in a godless universe, then that will be granted to you. This is the Divine law of Free-Will. Only those who APPROACH God through prayer will be given the revelation that He exists. He does not forcibly make his Presence known. Perfect Freedom, perfect Free-will.

[Rune Nyrup]

Originally Posted by davincikode

You can, but why would you? One who is interested in Truth doesn't 'pick' what he wants to believe. That's a sign of dishonesty.

I don't pick any particular of these. I'm open to all of the possibilities, though for the moment I'm leaning towards the view that causation is incoherent as a fundamental phenomenon (for indepedent reasons).

My position is: I don't know whether the universe and laws of physics have a cause, and if they do, I don't know what it is. But I don't think that gods exist.

If anything, it seems like it is the religious who arbitrarily picks the option "the universe MUST have a cause and it MUST be God".

Originally Posted by davincikode

You can be sure you can prove God exists. The difference with reasoning v.s. believing in God however, is that you need to approach God first, by the medium of prayer, before you can know him.

Why does one need to approach God first before He will make his existence know to you? It is because of free-will. If you want to believe or live in a godless universe, then that will be granted to you. This is the Divine law of Free-Will. Only those who APPROACH God through prayer will be given the revelation that He exists. He does not forcibly make his Presence known. Perfect Freedom, perfect Free-will.

Funny. A moment ago you claimed that God's existence is an undeniable fact. Now I have to pray to him, or approach him, even have a revelation, before logic works to prove him.

As a matter of fact I used to be a Christian and I prayed to him routinely. On some occasions I believed that he communicated back to me.

But that haven't made the logic of any God-proofs any more sound!

[davincikode]

I don't really believe you asked anything useful in prayer, because the nature of people in the current age is that of apathetic passivity, hence the marketing frenzy to lure you into buying stuff. People need to be sucked into things before they finally respond. Emotional apathy is the order of the day, quite coherent with the widespreadness of atheism these days, Few are the human beings who go about and pray the socks off God. You know what I am saying?

The sole, undeniable condition, for proving the existence of God is to approach Him honestly in prayer, meditation or whatever style one chooses. I indeed said that. No believe or conviction will be forced upon anybody, at anytime, thats part of the Law.

About prayer; to quote Jesus some mo' : "Knock and there will be opened for you; ask and it will be given to you". So I can imagine one could ask for a rational explanation and it would be given to him.

God is a Self-Existent Being that was never created by a 'Cause', that's what I am saying. We are all here, and design is all around us. Any atheist would do himself good questioning if there exists something like NON-DESIGN. Even space has non-design, as it has distinct qualities that are not to be found in e.g. a plant or a tree.

[Rune Nyrup]

Originally Posted by davincikode

I don't really believe you asked anything useful in prayer, because the nature of people in the current age is that of apathetic passivity, hence the marketing frenzy to lure you into buying stuff. People need to be sucked into things before they finally respond. Emotional apathy is the order of the day, quite coherent with the widespreadness of atheism these days, Few are the human beings who go about and pray the socks off God. You know what I am saying?

Yes, you are saying that you think you know my (past!) mind, and presumably the mind of every other atheist who was once a believer.

Such extraordinary mental powers seem to be quite common among believers

Originally Posted by davincikode

God is a Self-Existent Being that was never created by a 'Cause', that's what I am saying.

Yes, that is what you are saying, but you have given no reason why I should believe such a thing exists.

Originally Posted by davincikode

We are all here, and design is all around us. Any atheist would do himself good questioning if there exists something like NON-DESIGN. Even space has non-design, as it has distinct qualities that are not to be found in e.g. a plant or a tree.

There exists design (those things made by humans) and non-design (most other things). Since humans are not made by humans (originally) they are non-design. The story about how a non-designed thing is able to do design is exciting. Science has already uncovered the basic outline of this story and is progressively adding detail. So far, no part of this story includes god(s) and nothing indicates that god(s) will be needed in future extensions of the scientific story.

[davincikode]

The story about how a non-designed thing is able to do design is exciting.

And that is exactly your problem. You regard it as an emotionally, because obviously, you didn't think it through rationality.

The moment you start to think RATIONAL, all the excitement of being an atheist will leave you, as will the passion of science. Science is OK, but doesn't have the answers to the bigger questions in life: the existence of God.

Go beyond emotions for a while, and you will find that by crunching the statement DESIGN cannot be aroused out of NON-DESIGN is simply a fact. You can feel good about it, you can feel excited about it, you can feel depressed about it - emotions are not going to make a difference. After all, rational thinking has absolutely nothing to do with feeling states, it's all about being objective.

So, DESIGN cannot arise out of non-design, yet there is design ALL AROUND US. Thereore, a Creator exists.

LIFE is all around us, YET, LIFE CANNOT ARISE OUT OF DEATH. LIFE CAN ONLY ARISE OUT OF LIFE, not NON-LIFE.

Those 2 statements defeat atheism forever and ever.