The Ten Commandments

[GordonHide]

This thread is a continuation from the “Evolution” thread in the “Science & Origins category.

Originally Posted by Michael

Please state what really annoys you about the 10 commandments. And lets drop the pretending that they don't have some sound although basic ideas.

The problem is that implicit in this way of dispensing morality there are some very unsound ideas.
The first is that there are some things you can or cannot do which are automatically good or bad irrespective of context or consequences. The second is that a list of dos and don’ts is a valid way to dispense moral ideas at all. It might be alright for small children but adults need lessons in the nature of society, human beings as social animals, the origins of empathy and altruism and the concept of an individuals rights and responsibilities. If adults are so equipped, they wont need a list of dos and don’ts however short, snappy and misguided.

[Elijah]

Well......maybe when they were handed down....those people needed them....but for some people...they may still need them.

Some people still murder
some people still steal
some people still covet (this leads to disaster)
commiting adultery happens all the time.
blasphemy happens everywhere
honoring your mother and father is still a good idea

Let me put it this way.....If you honor the 10 commandments (even more so if you follow it to the extent that Jesus said).....what BAD can happen?

[Michael]

Originally Posted by GordonHide

This thread is a continuation from the “Evolution” thread in the “Science & Origins category.

The problem is that implicit in this way of dispensing morality there are some very unsound ideas.
The first is that there are some things you can or cannot do which are automatically good or bad irrespective of context or consequences. The second is that a list of dos and don’ts is a valid way to dispense moral ideas at all. It might be alright for small children but adults need lessons in the nature of society, human beings as social animals, the origins of empathy and altruism and the concept of an individuals rights and responsibilities. If adults are so equipped, they wont need a list of dos and don'ts however short, snappy and misguided.

I once said that they were created for a bunch of Jewish refugees.

A wolf pack snarls and growls they pick on the omega to work off frustrations. This law keeps the group intact even if the law is unfair towards the omega.

I said that they were basic. They needed to be basic because there was no court house to make proper judgements. I also said that they had good foundations. Applying them will on average not make you a worse person. Blindly applying them could though.

I never said that they were the end all and be all in civil law. When they were dispensed they were valuable and they served a purpose. In fact they were deemed so valuable that they've been kept long after the jews stopped being refugees. And many proper laws in use today were based on them. Not working on Sunday was a law for a long time. The laws against witchcraft were also upheld for a long time.

The point being that it may not be right according to our moral code or how we like to see it, but it is how it was.

You say no one is getting through to me... I am not being heard either because nothing of what I say here is new information. An really in opinion of how it should be I don't differ much from you. I am just saying you cannot disregard things that easily. You always have to maintain context.

What do you want me to say? That they are terrible laws? I won't because I don't believe that. In context they were right, and the idea behind most of them still is a good idea. But I'll gladly acknowledge that they are outdated. And unusable for law enforcement.


What was considered to be the punishment for breaking them by the way? A one way ticket to hell? Or are these just guidelines for people to live by to be able to influence their final judgment...

[Michael]

Let me put it this way.....If you honor the 10 commandments (even more so if you follow it to the extent that Jesus said).....what BAD can happen?

The moral code WILL make you a better person. IF you apply it only to yourself and never to others.

[GordonHide]

Originally Posted by Michael
What do you want me to say? That they are terrible laws? I won't because I don't believe that. In context they were right, and the idea behind most of them still is a good idea. But I'll gladly acknowledge that they are outdated. And unusable for law enforcement.

I want you to admit that as laws they are a non-starter, and were even then, because so much is left unsaid in terms of exceptions in particular contexts. And I want you to admit that as moral guidelines, which is what Christians have tried to use them as, they show a complete ignorance of appropriate mechanisms for persuading human beings both rationally and emotionally of the necessity for behaving well towards their fellows and indeed the other creatures in our environment.

[Elijah]

I think they're great laws....and are very usable today....obeviously some peope still choose to break them.

I think if they were still held up....this society would be a better place.

[daughterofkarl]

Hi, guys!

I'm surprised that in all this discussion of the Ten Commandments, the Code of Hammurabi has not come up.

They are, of course, very different documents and the individual merits of each could be debated individually, but a comparison of the two is, I think, warranted, given that virtually all of the Ten Commandments can be found addressed in the Codes. Of course the Code of Hammurabi was much more detailed and specific and made no claims to being concerned with spiritual practice. They are very much civil codes of law, with very specific discussion of what constitutes acceptable behavior and subsequent punishment for transgressions against those laws.

Excepting for the prologue to the codes in which Hammurabi pays tribute to a number of gods, he does not really address religious practice in the laws themselves. Nor does he credit the gods with the laws, rather he appears to be crediting them with investing him with the power to establish and administer the laws.

It appears to me that the Ten Commandments essentially drew from many already existing prohibitions. However, the Ten Commandments may be unique in that it devotes three (or four, depending on what version you are looking at) of its "laws" to establishing specific religious practice. Indeed, from my perspective this seems to be it's primary function and concern. That everybody worship the one god of Abraham, not build any idols to other gods, that everyone respect the one god and not use his name in vain, that we keep the sabbath holy, yada yada yada. These are the first things established by the Commandments, and, to me, this makes their application limited.

I think it is probably more accurate to say that Western law is more based on the model of The Codes of Hammurabi, than it is on the Ten Commandments. These seem to be primarily a tool for addressing religious practice and specifically for Judeo-Christian religious practice.

Just a thought!
Cheers!

[Lars]

Originally Posted by daughterofkarl

I think it is probably more accurate to say that Western law is more based on the model of The Codes of Hammurabi, than it is on the Ten Commandments. These seem to be primarily a tool for addressing religious practice and specifically for Judeo-Christian religious practice.

But, I believe, most of all on Roman law and Germanic (esp. Frankish) tribal law.

[Elijah]

I'm glad you brought this up....it allowed me to do some research and from what I've seen The Hammurabi sets up classes of people with its punishments.....and from wht I've seen it say nothing about murder (this one I wasn't really sure about)......but it seems that these were established before the Ten Commandments...but the commandments were given by God and were described as not only crimes but sins againt God. That automatically makes them WWWWAAAYYY different to me.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Michael

Your Sunday job may not be frowned on in our days. But one day it was. Shops are still generally closed on Sundays. At least where I live. And this is because of the 10 commandments. Western society WAS built around it.

Really? Western society was built around keeping one day in seven off? While there is no denying that Christianity has had a huge influence on Western society, the ten commandments is not a major part of that influence.